Sep 09 15:00:33 <nirik>	hey... who all is around for the Xfce SIG meeting?
Sep 09 15:00:42 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: Xfce SIG meeting - Init process
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Sep 09 15:01:45 <nirik>	cwickert / mether : you guys around?
Sep 09 15:04:04 <cwickert>	nirik: I'm here
Sep 09 15:04:27 <nirik>	cool. ;) 
Sep 09 15:04:46 <nirik>	anything we want to go over this week? 
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Sep 09 15:05:16 <cwickert>	not really, I did not have the time to do any xfce related work
Sep 09 15:05:26 <cwickert>	but we can talk about some bugs
Sep 09 15:05:35 <nirik>	yeah, I also have been busy this week... 
Sep 09 15:05:42 <nirik>	ok, let me pull up my list... 
Sep 09 15:06:24 <nirik>	how about we start from old to new and touch on some old ones... 
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Sep 09 15:06:29 <cwickert>	what about https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=446981
Sep 09 15:06:31 <buggbot>	Bug 446981: low, low, ---, kevin@tummy.com, ASSIGNED, gnome-keyring-daemon not started even if "launch gnome services" is checked
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Sep 09 15:06:44 <nirik>	sure, there has been some movement on that one. 
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Sep 09 15:07:44 *	nirik waits for bugzilla. slow for me today. 
Sep 09 15:08:04 <nirik>	so I was thinking that was happening only with pam_keyring... according to upstream. 
Sep 09 15:08:14 <cwickert>	did you apply the patch or has this issue been solved magically?
Sep 09 15:08:43 <cwickert>	so pam_gnome_keyring should be working?
Sep 09 15:08:44 <nirik>	I don't understand the cause. I can't reproduce it here. 
Sep 09 15:09:01 <cwickert>	wait a moment....
Sep 09 15:09:04 <nirik>	the upstream report says it's with pam_keyring, but we don't use that by default do we? 
Sep 09 15:10:06 <nirik>	perhaps I am misunderstanding. 
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Sep 09 15:11:45 <cwickert>	ok, I just checked it with a fresh user
Sep 09 15:12:01 <nirik>	yeah? and?
Sep 09 15:12:11 <cwickert>	gnome-keyring-daemon is started correctly here on F9
Sep 09 15:12:41 <nirik>	yeah, thats what I see as well. 
Sep 09 15:12:53 <nirik>	also in rawhide it seems to work for me. 
Sep 09 15:12:59 <cwickert>	so basically I consider this bug fixed or NOTABUG
Sep 09 15:13:18 <nirik>	he didn't answer me about using pam_keyring, but he couldn't duplicate it either. ;) 
Sep 09 15:14:05 <cwickert>	not sure if we need to care for the separate ssh-agent, but as long as upstream doesn't we don't need that ether IMO
Sep 09 15:14:21 <nirik>	yeah. I will comment on the bug... 
Sep 09 15:15:00 <cwickert>	ok, any more bugs you'd like to discuss?
Sep 09 15:15:22 <nirik>	let me look at the list again. 
Sep 09 15:15:55 <nirik>	any ideas on bug 457031 ? 
Sep 09 15:15:57 <buggbot>	Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=457031 low, low, ---, kevin@tummy.com, ASSIGNED, Desktop icons letters get very small after a reboot
Sep 09 15:16:01 <nirik>	it's pretty bizzare... 
Sep 09 15:16:17 <cwickert>	let me see
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Sep 09 15:16:33 <cwickert>	(bugzilla is really slow atm)
Sep 09 15:16:49 <nirik>	yeah. ;( 
Sep 09 15:17:28 <nirik>	bug 439162 is another weird one I haven't had time to try and figure out. The things people do... compiz and Xfce. ;( 
Sep 09 15:17:30 <buggbot>	Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=439162 low, low, ---, kevin@tummy.com, ASSIGNED, pager switches incorrectly when compiz is enabled
Sep 09 15:17:56 <nirik>	and I haven't had time to look further at the 'orage doesn't do anything' bug 459853
Sep 09 15:17:59 <buggbot>	Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=459853 high, medium, ---, kevin@tummy.com, ASSIGNED, orage fails to do anything
Sep 09 15:18:49 <cwickert>	in comment 13 he says it's not happening with a new user account, so to me that is not reproducable
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Sep 09 15:20:24 <cwickert>	very confusing... it only affects the desktop icons but not the fonts in general, right?
Sep 09 15:21:06 <nirik>	yeah. 
Sep 09 15:21:15 <nirik>	and goes away when he removes some qt libs/packages. 
Sep 09 15:23:20 <cwickert>	I am pretty sure it has something to do with ether kdm as login manager or with something saved in a previous session. maybe we shoould ask him to remove all his saved xfce sessions and then try again?
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Sep 09 15:24:09 <nirik>	yeah, worth a try... 
Sep 09 15:24:27 <cwickert>	ok, will post a comment then
Sep 09 15:24:37 <nirik>	cool, sounds good. 
Sep 09 15:24:41 <cwickert>	then we now if it's kdm or session related
Sep 09 15:24:47 <nirik>	any plugin bugs you want go over? 
Sep 09 15:25:04 <cwickert>	there is only one outstanding plugin bug atm
Sep 09 15:25:16 <cwickert>	https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=236064
Sep 09 15:25:19 <buggbot>	Bug 236064: medium, medium, ---, fedora@christoph-wickert.de, ASSIGNED, Controling audacious doesn't work
Sep 09 15:25:52 <nirik>	someday that bug will load. ;) 
Sep 09 15:26:06 <cwickert>	the plugin is horribly outdated and doesn't build correctly any longer, nether against xmms, nor against audacious
Sep 09 15:26:34 <cwickert>	also the plugin is designed badly, it links against the devel libs instead of the regular ones...
Sep 09 15:27:05 <nirik>	nasty. I guess orphan? is the maintainer gone upstream?
Sep 09 15:27:09 <cwickert>	I'm thinking about orphaning the package because audacious has it's own tray icon plugin now
Sep 09 15:27:17 <nirik>	yeah.
Sep 09 15:27:30 <cwickert>	ok, then I will do this before F10
Sep 09 15:27:56 <cwickert>	of course this requires a provides/obsoletes in xfce4-panel
Sep 09 15:28:06 <nirik>	yep. 
Sep 09 15:28:11 <nirik>	which is fine with me... 
Sep 09 15:28:20 <nirik>	I would say do it sooner rather than later... 
Sep 09 15:28:29 <cwickert>	agreed
Sep 09 15:28:36 <cwickert>	now that we are talking about the panel... lets talk about the default panel config again
Sep 09 15:28:40 <nirik>	ok. 
Sep 09 15:29:09 <cwickert>	we should enhance the default panel config
Sep 09 15:29:56 <nirik>	ok.
Sep 09 15:29:58 <cwickert>	basically the default upstream layout is not optimal, because it wasts a lot of space
Sep 09 15:30:23 <cwickert>	the bottom panel is very large/high, so the space left and right of it is wasted
Sep 09 15:30:26 <nirik>	in what sense? the bottom pannel?
Sep 09 15:30:30 <nirik>	yeah. 
Sep 09 15:30:56 <nirik>	but it's easy to change... how drastic would you like to change it? and to what?
Sep 09 15:31:01 <cwickert>	take a look at http://cwickert.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/xfce-default-panel.png
Sep 09 15:31:33 <nirik>	yes, I know it well. ;) 
Sep 09 15:31:35 <cwickert>	the space left and right of the bottom panel can't be used, even if you maximize the windows
Sep 09 15:31:43 <cwickert>	so we could ether use autohide
Sep 09 15:31:56 <nirik>	autohide would confuse people I suspect. 
Sep 09 15:32:00 <cwickert>	or make the panel smaller but cover the whole screen
Sep 09 15:32:06 <nirik>	"where did my panel go" 
Sep 09 15:32:17 <cwickert>	also autohide does not work reliable, sometimes it does not hide
Sep 09 15:32:31 <nirik>	yeah, if you move focus really fast you can trick it. 
Sep 09 15:32:39 <cwickert>	:)
Sep 09 15:32:57 <nirik>	ok, so whats your other thought? 
Sep 09 15:33:43 <cwickert>	well, I'd like it to be more "gnomish", but you already pointed out that you don't like that approach
Sep 09 15:34:10 <nirik>	yeah, not very fond of it. ;( How about moving the bottom panel to the right or left side? 
Sep 09 15:34:19 <cwickert>	nevertheless I have created a mockup, 100% gnome rip-off
Sep 09 15:34:20 <cwickert>	http://cwickert.fedorapeople.org/screenshots/xfce-gnome-like-panel.png
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Sep 09 15:35:01 <nirik>	yeah. I don't care for it. ;) 
Sep 09 15:35:03 <cwickert>	panels on the sides are even more confusing I guess, also some of the plugins have problems with horizontal orientation
Sep 09 15:35:35 <nirik>	in the end, not sure how much we should change upstream... should we change it to what we like? should we stay close? should we try and find out what users want?
Sep 09 15:35:55 *	nirik uses a panel on the bottom right... works ok here... but I don't have all plugins in it of course. 
Sep 09 15:36:20 <cwickert>	I guess the latter, we should make some more mockups and then ask users and people on the devel list
Sep 09 15:36:40 <nirik>	yeah, or the fedora-list. 
Sep 09 15:36:54 <cwickert>	basically I'd say let's make two small panels (24px) that cover the whole wide of the screen, but it should still be xfce'ish instead of gnome
Sep 09 15:37:03 <cwickert>	this means task list on top
Sep 09 15:37:12 <nirik>	really I wonder also how much it matters, how many people stick to the default or if they don't like it don't just customize it. 
Sep 09 15:37:55 <cwickert>	I have tried the sidux livecd that I got at FrOSCon and they also have the default layout
Sep 09 15:38:03 <cwickert>	I guess we should not change to much
Sep 09 15:38:22 <cwickert>	nevertheless I'd like places plugin and a email launcher by default
Sep 09 15:38:36 <nirik>	yeah, that I would be ok with... 
Sep 09 15:38:40 <nirik>	thats just minor changes. 
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Sep 09 15:39:01 <nirik>	but yeah, if people dislike the default they can change it. If they really dislike it, shouldn't they take it up upstream and get it changed for 4.6? 
Sep 09 15:39:36 <cwickert>	btw: did you see the new schedule for 4.6? horribly delayed...
Sep 09 15:39:44 <nirik>	yep. 
Sep 09 15:40:00 <nirik>	not surprising. They aren't on that ridgid a schedule usually. 
Sep 09 15:40:07 <cwickert>	:)
Sep 09 15:40:13 <nirik>	hopefully it will be ready for f11ish... 
Sep 09 15:40:23 <cwickert>	yeah
Sep 09 15:40:46 <nirik>	ok, anything more on this? do you want to go ahead and add email launcher and places?
Sep 09 15:41:06 <cwickert>	for the email launcher we could use "exo-open --launch MailReader", so we don't need to hardcode a certain app
Sep 09 15:41:25 <nirik>	yep. 
Sep 09 15:41:29 <cwickert>	any idea where the places plugin would fit best?
Sep 09 15:41:35 *	nirik thinks. 
Sep 09 15:42:02 <cwickert>	it has the same icon like thunar, so if we add it do the bottom panel it looks a bit confusing
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Sep 09 15:42:12 <nirik>	yeah, was just looking at the icon. 
Sep 09 15:42:43 <nirik>	top right, but leftmost of those? 
Sep 09 15:43:25 <cwickert>	that's what I thought too,
Sep 09 15:43:29 <nirik>	ie, right off the systray
Sep 09 15:43:52 <nirik>	wish it had a better icon. 
Sep 09 15:44:16 <cwickert>	I think the icon is good, because it's themable
Sep 09 15:44:25 <nirik>	humm... yeah, guess so. 
Sep 09 15:44:40 <cwickert>	if we ad it top right it makes the trash icon retundant
Sep 09 15:44:56 <cwickert>	because trash also is in places
Sep 09 15:44:57 <nirik>	we could replace the trash with it. 
Sep 09 15:45:20 <nirik>	I guess the label isn't translated? or is it? 
Sep 09 15:45:26 <cwickert>	hmmm. not sure if I like that...
Sep 09 15:45:26 <nirik>	(ie, icon + label)
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Sep 09 15:45:56 <cwickert>	not, it does not get translated
Sep 09 15:45:57 <nirik>	it also has desktop in it, so we could replace that on the far left... 
Sep 09 15:46:14 *	nirik isn't sure where it looks best. Somewhere on top. 
Sep 09 15:46:19 <cwickert>	but then we don't have the minimize all windows any longer
Sep 09 15:46:37 <nirik>	yeah, true. 
Sep 09 15:46:48 <cwickert>	maybe we should just leave it out and let users decide...
Sep 09 15:47:06 <cwickert>	there is no wrong and no right ether...
Sep 09 15:47:12 <nirik>	yeah, I suppose that would be fine too. 
Sep 09 15:47:27 <cwickert>	ok, but you are fine with a mail launcher, right?
Sep 09 15:47:38 <nirik>	yeah. 
Sep 09 15:47:47 <nirik>	bottom panel? 
Sep 09 15:47:58 <cwickert>	jepp
Sep 09 15:48:41 <nirik>	ok, I don't care much where there... 
Sep 09 15:49:11 <cwickert>	ok, then I say we stick with that for now.
Sep 09 15:49:25 <cwickert>	or do some more mockups and ask users for feedback?
Sep 09 15:49:36 <nirik>	I would say just do it... 
Sep 09 15:49:45 <cwickert>	ok, fine with me
Sep 09 15:49:54 <nirik>	unless you want to make more changes to the way the bottom panel is setup, in which case we should look at doing mockups. ;) 
Sep 09 15:50:32 <cwickert>	more ideas for the bottom panel? any plugin that you say needs to be there?
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Sep 09 15:50:40 <nirik>	oh, as a side note... lxde is not too many packages, I wonder if (once it's all in) we could combine it into the Xfce live spin... Xfce/Lxde spin... make it a choice of either... 
Sep 09 15:50:59 <nirik>	none come to mind off hand. 
Sep 09 15:52:09 <cwickert>	not really, I want to do a really slim spin based on LXDE, see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Cwickert/FedoraLite
Sep 09 15:52:41 <nirik>	cool... 
Sep 09 15:52:53 *	nirik is running lxde on his phone now. It's nice for there. 
Sep 09 15:52:57 <cwickert>	but maybe you are right, we clould add LXDE as a bonus on the Xfce livecd
Sep 09 15:53:07 <cwickert>	:)
Sep 09 15:53:09 <nirik>	yeah, we have room. 
Sep 09 15:53:34 <cwickert>	I keep this in mind, but we should ask mether
Sep 09 15:53:52 <nirik>	yeah, fine with me. 
Sep 09 15:54:09 <nirik>	anyhow, shall we close off for today? I have a bunch of stuff I need to get to. 
Sep 09 15:54:10 <nirik>	:( 
Sep 09 15:54:12 <cwickert>	basically that's all I wanted to discuss today
Sep 09 15:54:32 <nirik>	ok, sounds good. 
Sep 09 15:54:44 <nirik>	same time next week? will try and drum up some more people to join us. 
Sep 09 15:54:46 <cwickert>	no problem, took longer than I thought. anyway
Sep 09 15:54:56 <nirik>	thanks for the meeting! :) 
Sep 09 15:54:59 <cwickert>	ok, see you next week
Sep 09 15:55:03 <cwickert>	thanks
Sep 09 15:55:28 <cwickert>	btw: thanks for supporting my feature in the feso meeting ;)
Sep 09 15:55:42 ---	nirik has changed the topic to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule
Sep 09 15:55:54 <nirik>	no problem. :) 
Sep 09 15:56:02 <cwickert>	bye