Aug 06 11:54:59 ---	bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Meeting rules at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines -- Init process
Aug 06 11:59:55 <bpepple>	FESCo meeting ping -- bpepple, dgilmore, dwmw2, jwb, notting, nirik, kick_, jds2001, j-rod
Aug 06 11:59:55 <bpepple>	Hi everybody; who's around?
Aug 06 12:00:00 *	jds2001 
Aug 06 12:00:01 <j-rod>	here
Aug 06 12:00:09 *	jwb is here
Aug 06 12:00:11 *	nirik is here. 
Aug 06 12:01:06 *	dwmw2  
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Aug 06 12:01:40 <bpepple>	ok, I see six of us here, so we can probably get started.
Aug 06 12:01:43 ---	bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BetterPrinting
Aug 06 12:02:00 *	Kick__ is here
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Aug 06 12:02:38 <bpepple>	ok, this feature looks fairly straight forward.
Aug 06 12:02:48 *	dgilmore is kinda here
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Aug 06 12:03:29 *	abadger1999 takes a seat
Aug 06 12:03:41 <bpepple>	+1 to BetterPrinting feature.
Aug 06 12:03:44 <Kick__>	the only thing missing for BetterPrinting is a detailed test plan
Aug 06 12:03:46 <jds2001>	indeed straightforward, +1
Aug 06 12:03:50 <Kick__>	+1
Aug 06 12:04:08 *	nirik would like to see docs and release notes filled in... 
Aug 06 12:04:16 <jds2001>	yeah
Aug 06 12:04:25 <nirik>	but +1 and ask them to fill those in... 
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Aug 06 12:04:29 <jds2001>	i think release notes are critical for user experience things like this.
Aug 06 12:04:49 <nirik>	even if it only notes that their are many improvements. 
Aug 06 12:05:01 <nirik>	that kind of note would get people to go look and see... 
Aug 06 12:05:17 <j-rod>	+1 for me
Aug 06 12:05:40 *	jds2001 not tried setting up a printer in Fedora for awhile.....and i porbably wouldn't unless someone told me it was easier.
Aug 06 12:05:48 <bpepple>	ok, I see five '+1' to this feature, so it has been approved.
Aug 06 12:06:00 <jds2001>	That's why release notes are critical.
Aug 06 12:06:18 <dwmw2>	+1
Aug 06 12:06:19 <bpepple>	nirik: can you add something to the discussion page about adding a release note?
Aug 06 12:06:25 <nirik>	yep. Just about to do that. 
Aug 06 12:06:33 <bpepple>	nirik: thanks.
Aug 06 12:06:46 <bpepple>	moving on to next feature.....
Aug 06 12:06:57 ---	bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BetterStartup
Aug 06 12:07:08 <Kick__>	as this feature is only 53% completed and there are many packages involved, can we be sure that everything continues to work if we have to back down to rhgb ?
Aug 06 12:07:17 *	jds2001 notes the LOOONNNGGG TODO list. Can we really get all this done?
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Aug 06 12:07:53 <jds2001>	good point Kick__, that too
Aug 06 12:07:56 <bpepple>	Kick__: I'm not sure.
Aug 06 12:08:34 <Kick__>	we should ask the maintainers to add that to the test plan
Aug 06 12:09:00 <bpepple>	Kick__: agreed.  I'll add that to the discussion page.
Aug 06 12:09:15 <nirik>	yeah, more detail in the   Contingency section would be nice. 
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Aug 06 12:09:24 <nirik>	ie, what else needs to be reverted? etc
Aug 06 12:09:49 <j-rod>	this one really isn't as far off as it sounds
Aug 06 12:10:17 <jds2001>	j-rod: is the modesetting stuff in the kernel yet?
Aug 06 12:10:27 <j-rod>	and quite a bit doesn't actually need to be reverted, per se
Aug 06 12:10:29 *	jds2001 wants to take this for a spin :)
Aug 06 12:10:41 <Kick__>	It'll make a nice feature, but I'm somewhat concerned about the 53% completion
Aug 06 12:10:57 <j-rod>	I *think* the intel modesetting stuff works now
Aug 06 12:11:06 <nirik>	well, if it fails to be complete, it gets dropped and the Contingency plan goes into effect. 
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Aug 06 12:11:26 <nirik>	j-rod: it sorta worked for me in f9, but couldn't deal with suspend/resume at all. 
Aug 06 12:12:06 <Kick__>	nirik:  that's not even on the test plan
Aug 06 12:12:18 <nirik>	Kick__: oh yeah, that should be added. ;( 
Aug 06 12:12:28 <j-rod>	nirik: yeah, I think that was the old ttm-based stuff
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Aug 06 12:13:35 <j-rod>	I swear its further along than 53%, at least on development systems in-house, since I've seen the whole thing in operation
Aug 06 12:13:47 <j-rod>	but a lot of it wasn't committed to built packages yet
Aug 06 12:14:16 <nirik>	would have been nice for it to be in alpha, but oh well. 
Aug 06 12:14:25 <bpepple>	+1 to this feature, but would like more detail put into the test plan & contingency plan.
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Aug 06 12:14:30 <Kick__>	+1 from me provided we have working fall-back and known-to-work systems continue to have suspend/resume
Aug 06 12:14:41 <nirik>	in any case +1 from me, but we should ask for more tests and backout plan. 
Aug 06 12:14:51 <jds2001>	+1 here, we'll probably need to keep an eye oln this one at feature freeze.
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Aug 06 12:15:18 <j-rod>	+1
Aug 06 12:15:30 <dwmw2>	+1
Aug 06 12:15:55 <bpepple>	alright, I see six '+1' for this feature, so we've approved the BetterStartup feature.
Aug 06 12:16:13 <bpepple>	onto the next feature...
Aug 06 12:16:14 ---	bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Portreserve
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Aug 06 12:16:31 *	jds2001 notes the lack of several sections
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Aug 06 12:17:07 <nirik>	release notes FIXME is not good. 
Aug 06 12:17:11 <jds2001>	most specifically a testplan, and what packages need to be modified.
Aug 06 12:17:25 <j-rod>	haha, I like the contingency plan
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Aug 06 12:18:27 <dwmw2>	why isn't this being done with selinux?
Aug 06 12:18:29 <nirik>	-1 from me... ask them to fill in more info? list of packages, who is talking to package comittee, and such
Aug 06 12:18:34 <Kick__>	definetely nice to have, but more of an enhancement as an feature. It's invisible to the user and doesn't seem to fit into any of the feature requirements
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Aug 06 12:19:07 <jds2001>	-1 from me too, is this really a feature?
Aug 06 12:19:32 <jds2001>	more of an implementation of a bugfix to me.
Aug 06 12:19:48 <jds2001>	(yes, the "bug" has been around for years)
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Aug 06 12:20:32 <dwmw2>	it also only seems to do Legacy IP, unless my first glance at the code misleads me
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Aug 06 12:21:24 <j-rod>	mostly indifferent on this one myself. have to agree though, doesn't really sound feature-ish...
Aug 06 12:21:32 <dwmw2>	-1
Aug 06 12:21:42 <bpepple>	jds2001: Yeah, this might not meet the requirement of being a highly visible change.
Aug 06 12:22:02 <bpepple>	-1
Aug 06 12:22:08 <Kick__>	-1
Aug 06 12:22:10 <j-rod>	-1
Aug 06 12:22:43 <j-rod>	but a fix would still be nice
Aug 06 12:22:49 <bpepple>	alright, I see six '-1' so we have rejected the Port Reserve feature.
Aug 06 12:23:01 <j-rod>	at least as a feature, yeah
Aug 06 12:23:07 <bpepple>	j-rod: correct.
Aug 06 12:23:23 <bpepple>	anyone have anything else to add, or should we move on to the next feature request.
Aug 06 12:23:44 <bpepple>	moving on......
Aug 06 12:23:45 ---	bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/PythonNSS
Aug 06 12:24:23 <bpepple>	Does this meet the requirements for being a feature?
Aug 06 12:24:29 <bpepple>	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Policy/Definitions
Aug 06 12:24:45 <j-rod>	I was just going to suggest NOTAFEATURE
Aug 06 12:24:50 <jds2001>	dont really think so....
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Aug 06 12:24:58 <j-rod>	more like just a new package
Aug 06 12:25:02 <nirik>	yeah, seems like a nice to have new package
Aug 06 12:25:08 <bpepple>	j-rod: that's what I was thinking also.
Aug 06 12:25:30 <abadger1999>	I think the actual feature might be FIPS-140 validation
Aug 06 12:25:43 <abadger1999>	And this would be an update on that feature.
Aug 06 12:25:48 <j-rod>	more "Feature-y" would be to convert anything and everything using python ssl bindings to using nss bindings
Aug 06 12:26:21 <jds2001>	can Fedora *ever* be FIPS-140 validated?
Aug 06 12:26:21 <j-rod>	or a component of FIPS 140-2 validation (are we actually doing that for Fedora???)
Aug 06 12:27:22 <nirik>	well, that would require someone to pay for the testing wouldn't it? 
Aug 06 12:27:25 <jds2001>	if so, that's an awesome feature - but this is just a status update on getting there.
Aug 06 12:27:29 <abadger1999>	Questions to toss back to the feature writer,  I think.
Aug 06 12:28:01 <nirik>	yeah, -1 for now... make it more featurey and resubmit
Aug 06 12:28:16 <j-rod>	-1, not a feature as-is, just a new package
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Aug 06 12:28:24 <bpepple>	-1
Aug 06 12:28:26 <Kick__>	-1
Aug 06 12:28:37 <jds2001>	-1
Aug 06 12:29:13 <bpepple>	alright, I see five '-1', so we have not approved this feature.
Aug 06 12:29:55 <bpepple>	anyone have anything else to add, otherwise we can move on to the last feature for today.
Aug 06 12:30:14 ---	bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/SaveToBugzilla
Aug 06 12:30:29 <jds2001>	hotness from clumens :)
Aug 06 12:30:33 <j-rod>	+1
Aug 06 12:30:37 <jds2001>	+1
Aug 06 12:30:37 <nirik>	+1
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Aug 06 12:30:55 <bpepple>	+1, though they need to add a test plan.
Aug 06 12:31:03 <bpepple>	& release notes.
Aug 06 12:31:06 <jds2001>	they have one
Aug 06 12:31:07 <Kick__>	will there be any saveguards in place to check if this really is a Fedora installation ? I wouldn't like to have lots of bugzillas for dereived distributions
Aug 06 12:31:34 <bpepple>	jds2001: oh, my browser wasn't refreshed.
Aug 06 12:31:51 <Kick__>	..although they probably would have component anaconda anyway...
Aug 06 12:31:55 <Kick__>	+1
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Aug 06 12:32:19 <wwoods>	test plan involves triggering an intentional crash, which I *THINK* we can do
Aug 06 12:32:25 <bpepple>	alright, that's five '+1', so we've approved the SaveToBugzilla feature.
Aug 06 12:32:28 <bpepple>	wwoods: ;)
Aug 06 12:32:37 <jds2001>	wwoods: i was thinking of a bogus updates.img or something
Aug 06 12:32:41 *	wwoods cough cough
Aug 06 12:32:57 <bpepple>	ok, that's all the features that was ready for today/
Aug 06 12:32:58 ---	bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Free discussion around Fedora
Aug 06 12:33:00 <jds2001>	unless there's real bugs to be triggered :)
Aug 06 12:33:17 <wwoods>	you can always do an updates.img that replaces some key code with 'raise Exception, "AIIIIEEE I CAN'T FEEL MY LEGS"'
Aug 06 12:33:24 <bpepple>	Anyone have anything they wish to discuss?
Aug 06 12:33:24 <jds2001>	bpepple: i thought we were gonna talk about the review queue, or did that get dropped
Aug 06 12:33:25 <j-rod>	Kick__ raises a semi-interesting point w/derived distros...
Aug 06 12:33:41 <wwoods>	derived distros - the bugzilla installation URL is provided during buildinstall/pungi
Aug 06 12:33:43 <j-rod>	I presume this feature ties into the bugurl you feed anaconda at build time
Aug 06 12:33:49 <wwoods>	obviously they should provide their own. yes.
Aug 06 12:34:06 <j-rod>	wwoods: however... that's bugurl, not bugzilla url... :)
Aug 06 12:34:21 <bpepple>	jds2001: we can, though it might be worth waiting until tibbs gets back from vacation.
Aug 06 12:34:25 <j-rod>	so it'll fall down if bugurl is trac
Aug 06 12:34:33 <j-rod>	of course, not our problem
Aug 06 12:34:36 <wwoods>	AFAIK it's constructed like "%s/xmlrpc.cgi" % bugurl
Aug 06 12:34:38 <wwoods>	but I could be wrong
Aug 06 12:34:43 <j-rod>	(our == Fedora)
Aug 06 12:34:49 ---	bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- Package Review queue - bpepple, all
Aug 06 12:35:04 <j-rod>	I know of one Fedora-derived distro that uses trac... :)
Aug 06 12:35:14 <wwoods>	j-rod: right, it's using a simple API with a provided backend. in this case we provide a bugzilla backend
Aug 06 12:35:21 <j-rod>	will have to cross that bridge when I come to it
Aug 06 12:35:28 <wwoods>	if you want to write a trac backend and drop that in, go right ahead
Aug 06 12:35:30 <jds2001>	$DAYJOB has been very demanding this last week and weekend.
Aug 06 12:35:59 <bpepple>	jds2001: yeah, my free time has been pretty minimal for the last week, also.
Aug 06 12:36:05 <wwoods>	it just has to provide some API bits like python-bugzilla does
Aug 06 12:36:19 <bpepple>	tibbs was planning to start a package review sig when he gets back from vacation.
Aug 06 12:36:20 <j-rod>	wwoods: I don't want to. :) but at the same time, I don't want to see said derived distro blow up in funny ways
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Aug 06 12:36:31 <clumens>	THUD
Aug 06 12:36:33 <jds2001>	I have a little bit of something, nothing really presentable, to show
Aug 06 12:36:46 <jds2001>	clumens: we approved your feature :)
Aug 06 12:36:53 <wwoods>	I believe you can disable bug reporting if you're too lazy/busy to provide a backend for your derived distro's bug tracker
Aug 06 12:37:14 <clumens>	oh well that's good
Aug 06 12:37:21 <wwoods>	clumens: is the bug reporting URL derived from bugurl or embedded in the backend code?
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Aug 06 12:37:41 <nirik>	bpepple: yeah, but no idea if that will help... dunno if there is any easy answer. 
Aug 06 12:38:01 <clumens>	wwoods: it's part of the installclass, though it'd perhaps be better if it involved bugUrl
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Aug 06 12:38:22 <j-rod>	clumens: and can one opt out of permitting bug report submission for something like a derived distro that doesn't use bugzilla, and is too lazy to write a trac api?
Aug 06 12:38:35 <jds2001>	nirik: why wouldnt it help?
Aug 06 12:38:51 <bpepple>	nirik: agreed, but maybe we can try to organize some package review days or something.
Aug 06 12:38:55 <jds2001>	nirik: it would provide a way for tibbs to recruit qualified folks to help...
Aug 06 12:39:01 <nirik>	jds2001: why would it? I guess more org might get more people involved... but really there is a limited pool of reviewers. 
Aug 06 12:39:11 <jds2001>	yeah, it's all in the organization
Aug 06 12:39:18 <jds2001>	nirik: limited to ~600 :)
Aug 06 12:39:32 <nirik>	limited pool of reviewers who ever review anything. 
Aug 06 12:39:33 <clumens>	j-rod: if you've got a derived distribution, you are using an install class other than the ones we provide.
Aug 06 12:39:45 <clumens>	the default install class uses the AbstractFiler, which doesn't do anything.
Aug 06 12:39:48 <clumens>	so, yes.
Aug 06 12:40:09 <nirik>	perhaps we should look at a 'you must review another package to get your package approved' type thing... but thats not nice for people who really don't want to review. 
Aug 06 12:40:12 <j-rod>	clumens: cool, worksforme
Aug 06 12:40:14 *	jds2001 is guility of that.
Aug 06 12:40:59 <jds2001>	i.e. not reviewing - though i did review the mess that was testopia that I'm about to CLOSE/CANTFIX :(
Aug 06 12:41:02 *	jds2001 cries
Aug 06 12:41:03 <nirik>	in any case I am all for a SIG... but just not sure it will solve the issues. Worth a try. ;) 
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Aug 06 12:41:28 <abadger1999>	jds2001: Maybe someone will replace the JS library tonight :-)
Aug 06 12:41:48 <bpepple>	nirik: yeah, package reviewing is a pretty thankless job.  Hard to get folks interested in doing it.
Aug 06 12:42:31 <stickster>	Sort of like QA, docs, testing...
Aug 06 12:42:33 *	stickster runs
Aug 06 12:42:51 <nirik>	yeah
Aug 06 12:42:58 *	jds2001 recruits stickster :)
Aug 06 12:43:04 <stickster>	jds2001: You're on
Aug 06 12:43:27 *	bpepple agrees with stickster.  almost all of those are tasks that are hard to motivate people to work on.
Aug 06 12:43:38 <nirik>	theres a brew pub near here in boulder... one of the cool things they do is make everyone who works there do all the jobs. So, they move around thru waiting on tables, working in the kitchen, cleanup, manning the bar, helping make the beer, etc. 
Aug 06 12:43:56 <clumens>	how egalitarian
Aug 06 12:44:01 <nirik>	so, perhaps we could look at some kind of way to get people to move around and try things until they find the spot they are interested in. 
Aug 06 12:44:32 <nirik>	and in the mean time get them to do some reviews. ;) 
Aug 06 12:44:44 <jds2001>	hehe
Aug 06 12:44:57 *	j-rod only reviews packages when people specifically ask him to, or when they're of personal benefit, like the new iwl5000-firmware package... :)
Aug 06 12:45:00 <jds2001>	the only thing is you have to be sponsored to do reviews
Aug 06 12:45:07 <nirik>	true. 
Aug 06 12:45:07 <jds2001>	which limits the pool, as you said.
Aug 06 12:45:27 *	j-rod just doesn't have the time, otherwise
Aug 06 12:45:28 <Kick__>	let new maintainers do a few reviews under supervision so that they learn how to package and maybe do more reviews than the absolue minumum ?
Aug 06 12:45:37 *	jds2001 didnt even know there was such a thing as iwl5000 :)
Aug 06 12:46:19 <jds2001>	i did a review or two as a condition of being sponsored, as I think all sponsors should do :)
Aug 06 12:46:21 <nirik>	Kick__: they do, but the queue is pretty big... more stuff flowing in that being reviewed. 
Aug 06 12:46:32 <jds2001>	nirik is just a good sponsor :)
Aug 06 12:46:51 <nirik>	currently 722 in the queue. 
Aug 06 12:46:57 *	Kick__ hasn't had a look at the queue for some time
Aug 06 12:47:11 <nirik>	http://fedoraproject.org/PackageReviewStatus/NEW.html
Aug 06 12:47:25 <bpepple>	nirik: do we have weekly numbers of what the queue is?
Aug 06 12:47:29 *	jds2001 working on something so that we can highlight the status in FWN.
Aug 06 12:47:38 <nirik>	another idea tibbs had was to have bugzappers or someone go thru, run scratch builds and make sure things build and make sure the submitter is still there... 
Aug 06 12:48:05 <stickster>	nirik: Is that working with the new BZ?
Aug 06 12:48:09 <bpepple>	doesn't tibbs get back this week from vacation?
Aug 06 12:48:34 <nirik>	stickster: I think tibbs fixed it. 
Aug 06 12:48:38 <j-rod>	jds2001: iwl5000 hardware hasn't exactly been officially released yet, I think, but some folks have managed to acquire engineering samples... :)
Aug 06 12:48:39 <nirik>	yeah, in the next few days. 
Aug 06 12:48:57 <stickster>	nirik: OK, hadn't looked in ~48 hrs
Aug 06 12:49:13 <j-rod>	I've got an iwl5350 combo 802.11n/wimax card that I need to wedge into my t61 one of these days...
Aug 06 12:49:14 <nirik>	humm... or not. 
Aug 06 12:49:18 <nirik>	it's not updated to current
Aug 06 12:49:42 <Kick__>	nirik: oh my, 3 of my own packages under the first 15 packages listed there
Aug 06 12:49:47 *	Kick__ feels bad
Aug 06 12:51:12 <nirik>	in any case, I think we should wait for tibbs and the SIG and try and help with any ideas they have
Aug 06 12:51:19 <bpepple>	nirik: agreed.
Aug 06 12:51:29 <--	clumens (n=chris@nat/redhat/x-6d120d9cc009bbb1) has left #fedora-meeting
Aug 06 12:51:37 ---	bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Free discussion around Fedora
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Aug 06 12:51:56 <bpepple>	anything else foks want to discuss in our remaining 8 minutes?
Aug 06 12:52:31 <bpepple>	btw, I was contacted by Sun about getting NetBeans added to Fedora as a possible feature for F10.
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Aug 06 12:53:12 <Kick__>	aren't there some licensing issues with NetBeans ?
Aug 06 12:53:52 <bpepple>	I believe there under acceptable license for acceptance into Fedora, but I haven't had a chance to look into very closely yet.
Aug 06 12:53:59 <bpepple>	I just was contacted yesterday.
Aug 06 12:54:16 <Kick__>	last time I've looked was at least 2 years ago
Aug 06 12:54:21 <poelcat>	bpepple: they've got two weeks :)
Aug 06 12:54:49 <poelcat>	or less if we hold to a hard feature freeze date of 2008-08-19 (tuesday)
Aug 06 12:55:08 <bpepple>	poelcat: yeah, I need to get a move on this.
Aug 06 12:55:16 *	poelcat has one question about "spins" as a feature
Aug 06 12:55:28 <poelcat>	should I triage those to releng for +/- vote?
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Aug 06 12:55:53 <bpepple>	They've already submitted package reviews, but I probably need to contact some of the java guys for some help in reviewing them.
Aug 06 12:55:56 <poelcat>	i dont' want to keep carrying them as waiting for acceptance
Aug 06 12:56:17 <bpepple>	yeah, you can triage those to releng for voting.
Aug 06 12:56:30 <nirik>	poelcat: I would think so... you might doublecheck with them to be sure. 
Aug 06 12:57:24 <bpepple>	ok, anything else? otherwise, we should probably wrap up for this week.
Aug 06 12:57:43 *	bpepple will end the meeting in 60
Aug 06 12:57:59 *	bpepple will end the meeting in 30
Aug 06 12:58:08 *	bpepple will end the meeting in 15
Aug 06 12:58:14 <bpepple>	-- MARK -- Meeting End
Aug 06 12:58:19 <bpepple>	Thanks, everyone!
Aug 06 12:58:24 <nirik>	thanks bpepple 
Aug 06 12:58:34 ---	bpepple has changed the topic to: Topic for #fedora-meeting is Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule